United States Atomic Energy Commission Volume XVI; In the Matter Of: J. Robert Oppenheimer

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Stipulation re Pash interview Tran~cript of Pash Interview Table of Corrections to Pash Interview Statement re Lansdale transcript

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UNITED STATES ATOMIC ENERGY COMl4ISSION In the Matter of ... Atomic Energy Commission, The above entitled matter came on for hearing, pursuant to recess, before the Board, at 2:30 p.m. LLOYD IC. GARRISON,

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-----------MR. GRAY: Ur. Garrison. • l!IR. GARRISON: Mr. Chairman, I would like to make a Over the weekend we have examined llr. Borden's letter to llr. Hoover of November 7, 1953, which he read into the record at the last session. Mr. Borden in his brief testimony stated that the letter cona.ti tuted his conclusions, and that he had nothing to add. It is quite.clear that the letter consists not of evidence, but of lllr. Borden's opinions arrived at from studying FBI reports and other unsp1Jcified data. These opinions relate essentially to the ·ite11111 contained in 1953, which have been canvassed in the testimony, and the documents before this Board. It is apparent that except far llr. Borden's conclusions about espionage, for which there is no evidence, and as to which the Chairman has assured us there is no evidence before the Board, Jlr. Borden's opinions represent his interpretation of evidentiary matters which this Board has b-n bearing about for the past thr- weeks from persons who actually participated in the particular events • which have been the subject matter of this investigation. In view c1 these considerations, it bas seemed to us that if we were now to ask llr. Borden to develop further his opinions and condusions, - would merely be inviting

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argument about the interpretation of evidence. While the Board has been lenient in permitting argullient by witnesses, it hardly seems to us that we would be justified in provoking or inviting opinions and argument which could run the gamut of all the evidence before the Board. For these reasons it has seemed to us appropriate to respond to Mr. Borden's letter in our rebuttal and summation as - expl!t()t to do. Consequently, we shall dispense with cross examination utless · the Board should wish to ask Mr. Borden questions, in which eveat we would liketo reserve the right (o do ours when the Board is through. MR. GRAY: Of course, it is the right of Dr. Oppenheimer and counsel to decline to cross examine any wiibess before this Board. Obviously there is nothing in our procedure which requires cross examination. Mr. Garrison has stated that this letter constiti tes conclusions of the witness which, I think he has stated, was the case on direct examination. I think, however, it appropriate that the record reflect the fact which would be very obvious to anyone who reads it, that there has been a great deal of testimony here of conclusions with respect to these matters which were contained in General Nichols' letter and his counsel, have repeatedly stated that they had certain conclusions with respect to these matters which related to

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I think the present witness bas not sought to state anything other than these are his own conclusions • llR. GARRISON: That is right, Mr. Chairman. I did not mean to suggest that other witnesses have not stated their conclusions and opinions. Of course they have. I meant merely to say that those conclusions were derived from testimony of their own with respect to matters in which they had participated either with Dr. Oppenheimer or in other ccmnections from which they derived their conclusions. ,remark. I am sure llr. Garrison did not Man it that -y. Be stated that there -s no evidence of espionage. ~ think what the Chairnan said, and I have the transcript before 1118, is, "I would. say to you that the Board bas no evidence before it that Dr. Oppenheimr volunteered espionage information to the Soviets or complied with a request for such information, that he has been func~ioning as an espionage agent." I assume that is what Mr. Garrison referred to. MR. GARRISON: That is to which I had reference. the witness is excused. Thank you very much, llr. Borden. I offer the apologies of the.Board for having kept you here through the w-kend or having you required to return for this

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purpose. Thank you very much. I would like to talk to llr. Garrison and his colleagues about tbe so-called Pash and Lansdale transcripts. I· think we finally worked out the final version of the Pash transcript. I would like 1D have them appear in the record at this point, if there is no objection, · MR. GARRISON: I have not seen whatever llr. Rolander and llr. Ecker worked out. MR. GARRISON: Subject to looking it over and possible conference that might be •Cessitated by that between us, I certainly have no objection to its going in. Before it is considered to be finally in, we should have an opportunity to look whatever they have agreed to over. MR. GRAY' The Chairman would like to make a co-nt on this. It certainly is to be hoped that counsel can alP"ee. Perhaps I had misunderstood. I thought each of you had YR. Ram: I did, llr. Chairman • MR. GRAY: I bad the understanding that whatever llr. Rolander and Mr. Ecker agreed,was to be • If in your examination of it you think there is &O!D9 material ... tter, of

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course you will not be denied the opportunity to bring it to the attention of the Board. !ill. ROBB: So far as I am concerned, !ir, Chairman, iilR. GUAY: If Ur, Garrison feelm compelled to raise questions, then I think it would be well for you to becoaie "it", llOt, ROBQ: Very wall, MR. GARRISON: I would just like an opportunity to read it over, MR, ROLANDER: It is being typod now. Thore 16 a poc;sibility for some typographical errors, (Diacussion off the record,) pleteness of tile record we feel that the original typewritten tranecript as prepared in the office of Col. Pash in 1943, as he has testified here, should also be set out in the record following the appended table, and I ask that be done. Lanedale transcript, which is also being set out in the record, cou1111el for Dr, Oppenheimer wish the record to reflect that in airreeing to the printing of the Lansdale transcript of 12 Septe•ber 194~ they do not concede its correctness since the original recordinir or tape froa wh:t: la the transcript -s -de is not available to counsel for purposes of coeparison.

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MR. GRAY: I take it that there i• acreeaent aaons coun11el with rel!lpect to thel!le matters which you have read and the record will reflect that •

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Counsel for Dr. Oppenhei•er and counsel for the Atomic Energy COIBlliseion have compared the recording of the so-called Pash Interview of August 26, 1943, with the typewritten transcript, portiom of which were used in the cross as they can understand the recording, a correct transcription. Where portions did not appear to counsel for Dr. Oppenhei..r and for the COIUlitl•ion to be reasonably decipherable, this reflects the changes fro. the typewritten transcript, San Francisco, California llEMORANDUlo! FOR THE OFFICER IN CHARGE Re: Tranpcript of Conversation between Dr. and Lt, Lyall Johnson. Trans•itted, herewith, is the transcript of in the New Clase RoOll Building, University of California, Berkeley, California on August 26, 1943. It 19 to be noted

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tbat in some places the conversation was very indistinct and bat the substance of tbe •terial discussed is, herewith• P; This is a pleasure, because I am interested toa certain extent in activities and I feel I have a certain responsibility in a child which I don't knaw anything about. General Groves has, more or less, I feel placed a certain responsibility in - and it's like having a child, tbat you can't see, ·by remote control. I .don't mean to take much of o: That's perfectly all right. Whatever time you P: llr. Johnson told me about tbe little incident, or conversation, taking place yesterday in which I am very much interested and it had me .worried all day yesterday since he called me. o: I was rather uncertain as to whether I should or should not talk to him (Rossi) when I was here. I was unwilling to do it without authorization. Wbat I wanted to tell this fellow was that he bad be- indiscr-t. I know that ·that's • right that he had revealed infor•tion. I know that sayinr that much might ia some cases embarrass him. It doesn't seem to have been capable of embarrassing him - to put it bluntly. P: Well, UL t is not· the particulr inter-t I bave.

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It 1s something a little more, in my opinion, more serious. llr. Johnson said there was a possibility that there may be some other groups interested . o: I think that is true, but I bre no first-hand knowledge that would be, for that reason, useful, but I think it is true that a man, whose name I never heard, wlao was attached to the Soviet Consul, has indicated indirectly throu1h intermediary people concerned in this Project that he was in a position to transmit, without any danger of a leak, or scandal, or anything of that kind, information, which they mi1ht supply. I would take it that it is to be assumed that a man attached to the soviet Consulate might be doing it but since I know it to be a fact, I have bem particularly concerned about any indiscretions which took place in circles close enough to be in contact with it. To put it quite frankly - I would feel friendly to the idea of the Commander-in-Chief informing the Russians that we were working on this problem. At least, I can see that there might be some arguments for doing that, but I do not feel friendly to the idea of having it moved out the back door. I Ulnk tbat it might not hurt to be on the look-out far it • P: Could you give me a little more specific information a& to exact lJ what information you have? You can readily realiZe that phase would be, to me, as interestin1, pretty near, as the whole pr~ject is to you.

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o: Well, I might say that the approaches -re alwaya to other people, who were troubled by them, and sometU.s came and discussed them with me; and that the approaches we;re al-ya quite indirect so I feel that to sive more, perha.ps, than one name, wmld be to implicate people whose attitude was one of bewilder..nt rather than one of cooperation. l know of no case, and I am fairly sure that in all cases where l baa heard of these contacts, would not have yielded a single thing. That's as far aa I can so on that. Now there is a man, of my own knowledge that he was involved as an intermediary. It seems, however, not impossible and if you -nted to watch him it might be the appropriate thine to do. Be spent quite a number of years in the Soviet Union. Be's a English • I think he's a chemical engineer. Be was - he may not be here now - at tbe time I was with him here, employed by tbe Shell Development. Bis name is Eltenton. l would think that there was a small chance - well, let me put it this way - Be bas probably been asked .to do what be can to provide information, Whether he is successful or not, l do not know, but be talked to a friend of bis who is also an acquaintance of one of the ·men on tbe project, and that was one of the channels by which this thing went. Now I think that to go beyond that would be to put a lot of names down, of people mo are not only innocent but whose attitude was lOO'I cooperative.

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that if we get information like that we have to work in an absolutely discreet manner. In other words we can't afford to even indicate - o: That you are concerned. P: That we are concerned or throuch whom we get infornation. However anything that we may get which would eliminate a lot of research work on our part would necessarily bring to a closer conclusion anyth.ing that we are doing. o: Well, I'm giving you the one naM tbat I tlink 1is, or isn't - I mean I don't know the name of the man attached to the Consulate - I think I may have been told or I may not bav been told and I have, at leastnot purposely, but actually forcotten. Be is - and he may not be here now. These incidents occurred of the order of about 5, 6, 7 months aco. J: I was wondering, Dr. Oppenheimer, if there was a particular person - maybe a person on the Project that they were trying to pump information from - that if we knew who those were, would at l•st know where to look for a leak, not from the standpoint of .•• , but looking at a certain P: Herds the point that I would feel o~ I would.feel that the people that they tried to get information from were mor or less an accident (interpolation) and I believe I would be making some harm by saying that;

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P: Yes. Here's the thing - we of coorse assume that the IB ople who bring this infor•tion to you are 100'1. with you, and therefore, tbere is no question about their o: Well, I'll tell you one thing - I have known of 1 two or three cases, and I think two of the •n were with me at \ Loa Alamos - they are men who are very closely associated with me ·p: Dave they told you that either thJ'y thought they were contacted for that purpose or they were actually contacted for that purpose? o: They told· me they were contacted for that purpose. P: For that purpose. o: That is, let me give you the background. The backcround was -- well you know how difficult it is with the relatiom between these two allies, and there are a lot of people who don't feel very friendly to Russia, so that the information - a lot of our secret information, our Radar and so 0'1, doesn't get to them, and they are battling far their lives and they would like to have an idea of what is goinc on and this is just to make up in other words for the defects of our official co111111Unica tion. That is the form in which it o: Of course, the actual :fact is that since it is not a communicatt>n which ought to be taking place, it is

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It is a method carrying out a policy which was mare or less a policy of the govern•nt and the form in which it came was …