United States Atomic Energy Commission Volume VII; In the Matter Of: J. Robert Oppenheimer

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PERSONNEL SECURITY BOARD In the M~itte:r of Atomic Enorgy Cnwmission, p:nmONNEL SIX:: UR I TY BOARD: ALLEN Ba ECKE~, Counsel for J. Robert Oppenheimer.

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an in(ividual na~ed C. So Kurtz, 4507 North Dover Stroet, Chicago 40, 11 linos, H.is telegram to me said, "Pleaso wire I an iciormed that Mr. Kuntz has indicated that he wishes: to tics:;ify for, i..f yoli v1ill allow me to put it that way, Dr. Oppenhe;mar. I pass it along for whetevet value it moy·-< be to you. I.f you do n~t propose to call him, perhaps I shoul~ communicate and tell him that we will not noed him as DRQ t)PPENHEIMER: Cau I hear the spelling oi the nrim,2? with you in the l~boratory, i\IRo GAKUSON: Thank you 9 Mr. Chairman, for bringing it to our attention. MR. Gnt.u:: Perhaps ycu would want to talk about this • .MR. GARRISON: AB :fa:r as I now know, we certa idy have no intention of calling him. MB. GRAY: Very we11: The other thing I want to Oppenheimer. You will recall, I guess it was on Fridayb ~e

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was in the c:ity at the time 1 out of consider£ition for their prob lens, w:e said :~hat wa would hear them,, , You will rec a 11, however, th:.'\ t 1 in:Hcatej that the Board wished to proceed The Boar~ feel3 very strongly that u good deal of gett inf: back to Dr o OppenheiLmer right away an~ seeking in so far as possible to have his testimony 9 redirect. and any recross examin~tion, not fragmented and interrupted. I understand that Mr. Kennan is here and at the moment is waiting to testify 5 and of course we will bear him. Per ha pf; :r should 23 k if there are any othor witnesses on ME. GARRISON: Yes, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Lilienthal Z~cbarias is here from Boston. Dr. Conant has cabled over that at two o'clock t is afternoon he had to make plans becausti of the c:omplicatsd na";u;:e of his witness here. Professor Ramsey from Harvard is here.

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~~hrough mor.c.:i than a portion of one volume of the cross e:xaninaproblem of Jnulyzing whit had become quite a complicated questions on ~be basis of what he recalled in the past and ·e then producing OOCIJtnEmtE;, some of whi•:::h had been taken from dee lassifi·~cJ, a 11 this produced a ver·; complica·ted and It has been purely a t9I'Oblem of time. I don't prepared,. ~nd he is thoroughly r·Bady to do it., I want very much to coope:~at1:i with 1;he Bear•:'! in thiso I would think that today t h~:i ca hmclar is roa l ly beyond our MH. GRAY: It would sound soc witnesses who are here or on thrai:r way here today and I want to askubout Dr. Conant. You started to

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MH. GARFISON: Yes, hB is. He will be here today at 2 o'clocl:a We can tan: over our problem during the :\m 0 GRi\ Y: A l'i. right. May I ask at this point only for an indi~aticn ~s to what is involved in time. because I think the Boa:~d wi 11 probably c:1 l l some witnesses, and they Could you gi Vtl an i ndi..cnt ion of who a:re yet to come This is not for any purpose cth13r tha~1 time. MRQ GARHlSON: I ur.. derstand, Yes 9 we have ten» I think, outside of tho~;e 1 rLentioned todayo General President Ki. l lian, Mr c Harth: y Rowe 1 and Mr. Harry Winne• and DR. E'V.:\IlS: In addition to the ones for today. MR, GARHISON: I would rather doubt, if it is possibli"'J for us to get ·;>reparecl for redirect and I suppose some more cross e~amination of Dr. Oppenheimer this week~ I

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should think that it wo~ld not be possible. to hear all these witnesses thit3 weok,. Vlo had hoped to be able to do so, because we knew how m:1ch 1;he Board desired not to have to come back nor de we wurselv~s wish to corns back 1 either. But I do think as we aTa going i~ means that there will be probably one day or possibly a d3y and 2 half overflow of testimony beyond what w·:) can do ia this one week. MR., GP.A~;: I ·~hh::Jt it is impossible to say that MRo GARB.ISON: Does the Board have any present idea as to when it will recocveoa for the sale of hearing witnesses that it wishes to call? MR. GR'\Y: I ·.vould expect at this point that we would proceed :1er.t week for that purpose. I don't think there wi 11 be too um'ny wi tnesi:;es,, Perhaps we should proceed. MR. GAHHISON: Could you inform us who they are MR. GRAY: Ye:; 9 we wi 11 give you an indicEition. The Board has not come ·~o any fhal conchs.on. For one thing, up unti1 this point I~dml't think that we have known all the wi tnes..ses for certain whom Dr o Oppenheimer wishes to cal lo I am sure soma of these the Board would have called if he had not called the~o MH o GARHISOJ."'i : I think this is the original list that I gave you away back~ Mr~ Chairman. I think there may

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DRo EVANS: I thought you did. minutes notice> so I bed hiM on the side. Mr, Chairmanu I think this is just about it as l gave it to you the first day. What is your full nam8? MRo KENNAN: George Frost Kennan. MR. GRAY: Do you wish to testify under oath? You are not required to do so. MRa KENNAN: I would be quite prepared to testify !:1:3.• GRAY: A 11 th3 vi tnesses have to this point~ Would you then stand, please, and raise your right hand? testimony you are to give the Board shall be the truth, the MRo KENNAN: I ell Do

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GEOEGE FROST KENNAN was ca llad ai:; a 1:1itnes~;, 3nd having been first duly sworn~ It is necessary f c:r .11e to point out to you the existence of the so=called perjury statutes. I shall be glad to give you an indi.cation of t~e penalties if you wisho I Ghou'Ld also like to ask that in the event, probably unl:Llu:ll31 J.n this case 9 that it is necessary for you to disclose any restricted data in your testimony. that you advise me be:~ore such disclost:1re 9 in order that we might Finally• I should lHce to point out to you that the proc,aedi11gs anc! record of this Board are regarced as strictly confid1entta l between the Atomic Energy Commission representati~es und wi~nesseso The Commission will take no initative in the public release of any inlbrmation relating to these proeeed::"ngs~ and we express the hope that will be the

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C Mr. KenLBD 1 will you please identify yourself and give the Board briefly your proccessional history? E am ·~old that you should be addressed as b.mbassador Kennan, but that does not come quite n~turally to me. lf 1 may, 1 would A 1 an now a Foreign Se~vice Office ~atiredo I grew up in Niscons:.n o J. had my eat' ly schooling there, went to Princeton UnivorsitJ into the Foreign Service of the United States, where I served for 27 y~ars without interruption. I retired fJl.·011 thE! f'ore:.gn Service last July, and am now on a regular retired status. A 1 arn at pxesent a mero·t>er of the Institute for Advanceo Stud:r in Pl'incoton, and in residence at the Q Will you please describe in a little more detail A 1 · s·::n· ve'J firs"'; fer a year or two in Geneva and Hamburg as a ?ice oonsul» and then was selected -- this was away back in 1928 -- as one of the first group of men to be trained fOJ~ spocial work in the Soviet and Russian field,.

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We were at tt.nt t imo given r~;ther a thorough course of training, usually three or four years of ito I was sent took the diploma of the Orient~l Seminary in Berlin, and after that l was put as a reporting officer in Berlin first in th.c:: Legat ion of Higa be~:o1·0 we had any re lat ions with the Soviet Union 9 and a :C'ter 19~13 i u the Embassy in Mose ow o ~ince t~at ti~e 1 have had the status iu the service of a ::·.poci21ist on ~3ovir3t 2tffairs. I have served on four different ccdasio~s in the Embassy in Moscow in v&rious A That was :Ln lc'.}52o I have had other service relating to the Soviet ~nion~ such as the so-called Russian Desk in the State D~)p11r·~ment in 1937 and 19480 So l have been pretty closely in contact with Soviet problems for most of my career. A I bava served for many years in Germanyo A In addition to my studies there in the earlier years, I studied during the v1ar -- or rather I served during the war -- from the outbreak of war until Pearl Harbor, after I wes interned for a time, so that I had nearly three years of wartime servict3 in Germany. Also service in Austria and

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of tho PoU~cy Planning Sta:ff of the Depu:ctment of State and from tba beginning of 1950 u~til the middle of that year counsollor of the Departme~t of Stat~~ My last official a position ttet I had coly for six mcnths in 1950. Q Cotld you describe io just a very few sentences staff and as counsellor of the State DepartmGnt? Marsh~ll in the spring of 1947. I wEs asked to found it and to dE:1tiertdne its composition and its pro?edu:res and to head it initially 5 and did so. We were an advisoTy staff to the Secretary of State. We were there to advise him on questions major questions of foreign policy and especially long term policy Sis we our::.elves thought were :Ln an advisory opini.on The sts ff is sti 11 in exis·tence. Its methods of work have chnoge~ from time to time 9 but has remained as a

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permanent unit of the Depa~tmeEt of State, and is the only body <»s fat' as I am :awaJCe in the frareework of the staff which lurn a uni vors~ l competence, Its competence j.s not rest:ricted to any geographic area or functional areao q When yol1 were counsellor, what does the tex·m Secre·;ary of State who has n'J ope:rationn l responsibility in the smise that he has no d :l vi.sf.on or administr~1t i ve apparatus under him. Ee is in purely 3n advisory capacity. The title and qgalitites which it is felt might be useful to the Secre·;ary g possibly to the P:re2:ident as an adviso1· o <l In the hierarchy 9 am I right in unders t~nding that :~he post of counsellor is equiv El lent to or just under taet of Under Secretary? A Yes~ sir. It has varied. I would say it has a b1ayf; been between the second and the fourth place in the Depar·::ment of State v depending on thEi Secretary of State and the cotmsel lor and the arr~ingements made at the moment o (' I should have asked you at the beginning a matter which I suppose everybody knowB about, but which we ought to

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A I amo The arUcle was written privately for Mr. Forrestal in December 1946 and January 19470 He hod asked me for a review o:f anot~1er -paper that he had obtained from anothn· sorrce on this ::;ubj.ect~ and I told him l can't commeLt on th3t~ but l ·Nould ba glad to give you my own Latar Mr. Arm;trong, who was bead of the Council Affairs '~ ~H:;ked m•B if l had anything along this line that I could st1btli t for ·.;ub lie :~ti on~ and I did on the condition that it would be published anonymously. To my horrort the article actually appeared after I had toke~ over tho policy planning staff under General Marsh~ll, and the a~thorship of it leaked, ~nd it caused quite a sensation when it did appear. As far as I know. it did no damage. It had been duly clearad by the Department of State so Genersl ~arshall never held it against me. I was the author of it. Q l don't think Mr. Hobb wi 11 object to my as kin . you ii it bas not been generally regarded as a rather robust stateui.:Jn.t of the situation af the "United States with respect to -~hP peri.l that we faced vis a bis the Russians. A It was an attempt ','.;o analyze the rea:Dns for

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and to suggest -- A Yes. and to su:J"gest an approach to this p1·obl.em on our part that would be hJpeful and belpfulo Q I would lilrn t J turn now to a mor<:i speci fie subject and ask you what you h&V3 hnd to do with the problem of Sov 5d3t es pi ona ge i :3 ov iet infiltration af agents into the A Iu the early days bofcre our recognition of the Sovtet Gove1·nment t1hr~n a number of us worked on the Baltic States in rending the Russian press -- Q Do you speak and read Russian? A I do~ sir, yes. ffe wEre rather shocked to observe the names and statements of Americans or people who held themselves out as ~maricans~ but who were giving statements ones that in::J icnted that th<31' al legi.ance was to the Soviet Union and not to thL; governmiant. THE VlI'l~}lESS: I w@uld say roughly in the years between 192U aod 1933. At that time we were concerned about it o I \l'B 1·sona l ly brought some of these names to the att£1ntion of the government back here., and raised the question

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as to whether passports could not be denied to these people because it seemed to me evident that they had expatriated themselves in (!J'Jery sense of the word~ subjectively. Wo ran up against the snarls of legislative prov is ions and procedural provisions of the government~ and I don't believe anything w~s done about it at that time. Aite:r the recognition of the Sovie·~ Union during the Thirties 1 ·~his continued, I must say 9 to be a source of concern to practically all of us 9 I think, who were professional officers in this field, and serving in Moscow. We saw people about those intentions and activities we b~d great doubt. There was not much that we co~ld do about it then from our position, except to try to see toa that those people wure not used in the Emb:assi..es anti that th0y wm·e handled with due discretion by Embassy peopleo In oth9r words, our concern there was primarily with the security of our own miss ion" I Day say that l think the Moscow Embassy was the first mission of our governmentf'Al service t·o institute proper security precautions in time of peaceo We were the firsx people so far as I am aware who always had our code …