Appropriation Committee Hearing Transcript (re the Resettlement of Bikini Atoll) (Attach: Editorial Instructions)

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Attached is the transcript of your hearings. Tne Comittce has set a deadline for its return. In order to review it co be certain all questions have been answered and necessary corrections made, it must arrive in the Coxcnittee has emphasized the following requirements: . The Committee has final editorial authority. Changes should ~e limited to grammatical or obvious errors. Do not change an answer from “Yes” to “SO” and do not change the sense of the reply. Do not rcv.rriteanswers. On occasion, the Comcittee has been disturbed xith extensive chzngcs made in replies to questions. This practice can only lead to disrupting our relations with the If you think there should be Insert where appropriate ; usually no less than one lvery three Since House hearings are usually held in executive session, the~ Committee expects that the proceedings will not be made public ! until the Committee releases the information. Therefore, they 1 do not want copies made of the transcript. a. Indicate on inserts the appropriation and activity involved *S@ ( ‘ “b.”. Staple inserts to blank pages of the same size as the transrncript. Do not staple inserts to transcript pages. avoiding partially filled pages as much as possible.

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DEPARTMENT OF INTERIOR AND RELATED AGENCIES APPP.OPRIATIONS RUTH G. VAN CLZVE? DIRECTOR, OFFICE OF TERRITORIAL AFFAIRS) DEPARTMENT OF THE INTEP.IOR GEORGE MILNER) DEPUTY DIRECTOR FOR PROGRAM AND POLICY, OFFICE OF TERRITORIAL AFFAIRS, DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR HUGH GALLAGHER, BUDGET OFFICER, OFFICE OF TERRITORIAL AFFAIP.S} DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR LEO M. KRULITZS SOLICITOR. DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR C. BREWSTER CHAPMAN, ASSISTANT SOLICITOP.t DEPARTMENT OF JOSEPH DEAL, ASSISTANT DIRECTOR FOR FIELD OPERATIONS> Y

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DIVISION OF OPERATIONAL AND ENVIRONMENTAL SAFETY, DEPARTRENT TOHMY McGRAW, DIVISION OF OPERATIONAL AND ENVIRONrlENTAL SAFETY, DEPAP.TMENT OF ENERGY DR. WALTER WEYZEN, DIVISION OF BIOMEDICAL AND ENVIRONMENTAL SAFETY, DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY - GERALD JB. HELMAN, DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF STATE FOR ‘ OSCAR DeBRUM, DISTRICT ADMINISTRATOR, MARSHALL ISLANDS TOtlAKI IJUDL, MAGISTRATE, KILI COUNCIL, KILI COMMUNITY, NATHAN NOTE, SCRIBE, KILI COUNCIL, KILI COMMUNITY, JENDRIK LEVITICUS, REPRESENTATIVE OF THE CURRENT RESIDENTd IF BIKINI ISLAND KESSAI NOTE, INTERPRETER AND MEMBER OF THE KILI CONMUNITY ~

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f’lr. Yates . The hearing will come to order. rlrs. Van Cleve, would you like to join us at the table? We are pleased today to have with us again Hrs. Ruth G. Van Cleve, Directox, Office of Territorial Affairs of the Department of Interior; Mr. ~h Deal, Department of Energy; Mr. Gerald Helman, Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for Iqteznational Organization Affaizs. I am told that Mr. Idinkel will not be with us this morning because of his son, uhich is understandable. I think we had better get all the people who are going to say anything up from the table heze. You are from the State Department. We thank you for coming this morning. I bJe have a statement from Mrs. Van Cleve. Youz statement , and Mr. Winkel’s statement may be made a part of the xecozd. !

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summary of mine, then Mr. Chairman, if I may give a very bxief I would like very much to zead the High Commissioner’s statement, if I may. It is a xepoxt on his recent trip to the affected islands, and I think it would be helpful if it uere fully presented. My oun~bxief statement says simply that the xepxesentations that we made to you at our hearing in May we axe continuing to meet. Me expect that the Bikini people will be relocated in the 75 to 90 days that we then projected. We have placed the orders for the raw matexial foz the facilities that are necessary fox their temporary relocation, and we have made the selection of Kili Island as the temporary relocation site. .

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Mr . Yates . What do you do with zespect to the desire of the Bikinians to stay where they are at? You uzote a lettez in which you said, in a letter dated June 12: “At the hearing on Bikini on ?lay 22, I pzomised to apprise you by June 12 of the results of the visit of the High Commissioned to Bikini to meet uith the people living there and to leaxn theiz preference fox relocation fzom ‘‘High Commissioner Minkel has telephoned to report that their first preference is to xemain on Bikini Atoll. The Bikinians ask that the time betueen now and the date they must move from Bikini Island be used fox additional studies by the Department of Enexgy to determine caoxe definitely uhether or not Eneu is a suitable alternative. Me have asked DOE to complete its tests promptly. p_OEARCHIv “The Bikini Island residents expressed great concern about moving anyuhere else in the tlaxshalls, because to do SO would ‘intrude upon the rights of others. ‘ If they must leave Bikini Atoll, they have asked the High Commissioner to

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designate the site. He currently believes that the final choice would be Jaluit or Kili. “Hr. Winkel and I will discuss in detail the results of his trip to Bikini, Kili, and Jaluit uith you and the Committee at the June 19 hearing. “ ~

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f’lr. Yates . Youx lettez indicates that the Bikinians want to stay on the atoll. Is that impossible? Mrs. Van Cleve. In ouz judgment, it would be imFzoPer fol them to remain because of the medical risks involved, and the Department of Energy agrees with that conclusion. Accordingly, we mean to persist in our plans to relocate them, this, .in the intexests of their physical safety. We xecognize, of course, their preference to remain. That is why we have had this pxoblem for some 30 yeazs and will continue for some decades hence. Me are simply trying to meet it in the most reasonable way we know, recognizing the physical threats that exist if they remain at least on rlr. Yates. Let’s look at it a minute before we go to the i The reason they cannot zexaain there is because o radioactivity of the coconuts and Mater. It was the food, ~ the intake, zather than the exteznal causes; is that I

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121 Mrs. Van Cleve. I believe it is a combination of both. time . As I remembez his testimony the last time, it was internal causes rather than external causes; is that right, tlr. Deal . I think maybe both are right. The external zadiation has to be considered. The internal is so high that it overshadows the external. Mx . Yates . How potent is the external; and suppose you did not have the inteznal radiation? Would it be feasible for them to remain? Mx . Deal . The external radiation is about like Denver, Mx . Yates . It would be as dangerous as Denver, Colorado RX . Yates. They are not evacuating the City of Denver,

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MY . Yates. So, therefore, the amount of external radiation in the City of Denver is not considered sufficient fox that city to be evacuated. I assume, therefore, that if that is the same condition on Bikini, the basic cause for your suggestion oz your recommendation that Bikinians be evacuated is the ingestion of the food and the water; Rr . Yates . Now if the Bikinians wanted to stay there, stay on their atoll, if they did not consume the water and the food that was there, I uould deduce from what you say that it would be as dangexous for them to live on Kili or Jaluit or any one of” the other islands as it would on Mr . Deal. Yes, sir, the othez islands are quite---- Hz . Yates . That gets us to the basic question then: I you feed them and give them water from other sources that I would pexrait them to stay on Bikini so that they would not $ be taking in the radiated food and water? You are looking IL ~

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fox fziends in Intexior? knou . I have personally concluded that it is probably to farm it and to take the watex fozm the axea. I think that is a practical situation. I Hr. Yates . Suppose you ueze to plant other coconut trees; How long does it take coconut tzees to come? Let’s ask the next question. Ue talk as though coconuts uexe the only food there. Isn’t there other food? Mrs. Van Cleve. There is, indeed. Mrs. ~Van Cleve. Breadfruit, papaya, sueet potatoes. Mrs. Van Cleve. All of these have turned out to be ! contaminated when grown in Bikini. r’lz. Yates . That is because of the soil being

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III. Yates. And the contamination in the soil is transferred to the food, and theze is no way they can gxou --- food without it being contaminated; is this correct? Mx . Deal. That is cozrect. I MX . Yates. How much of a chore is it to bzing food in , from the outside? Suppose it were a barren atoll; they didn’t have, the opportunity to grou things. Mrs. Van Cleve. I think it is entirely feasible to bzing food in from the outside. What we believe, houever, also to be tzue, is that it is not feasible to expect Pacific Islanders to live on an island and not eat the things that axe growing there and not dzink the watex that is there. we could feed them entizely from outside sources, but we could ~ not bar them effectively fxom eating local pzoduce. rlr. Yates. How do they get their uatex now? Mhat is the uatez that is contaminated? Is it fxom uells? pOE ARCH I’lrs.Van Cleve. It is a gxoundwatez supply as I understand it, yes.

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cisterns too,” some runoff water from rain, but I think it is-. the wells too. They have to use the wells under certain conditions . Theze isn’t enough cistern water. Mr . Yates. There is not enough cistern water. The cistern water is not contaminated, is it? Flr. Deal . Not to any extent to cause them this kind of Mr . Yates. Is there any way of decontaminating the uell system of resins used in chemical processing to remove the radioactivity. Slr. Yates. How difficult and hou expensive is it? that problem that I know of, except back during the fallout days theze uas a question about decontaminating milk, and, there was some looking at that pzoblem. It is a similaz /4

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216 problem here, but we would have to go back and take a hard 217 look at that. I tHave you looked at alternatives that would permit then to I You nod your head put that in the record Firs. van Cleve. I understand. yes. The reporter has to put your nodding head in I agree with uhat you Mr . Yates. I agree with what you said. Yates. You agree with the postulate that I have made ~ :hat they cannot stay there. That is our position. Mr . Yates . And the Bikinians say they want to stay there., rlr. Yates. I think maybe we ought to get the Bikinians up ere at this point.

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take seats up at the you have to say. They have a prepazed statement, HZ. table, and let’s hear what it is that Mr . Leeiticus. My. Allen, as I understand it, no longex /# 244 llr. Weisgall. Yes, I do. 246 uho testified at the last hearing. 247 Mr. Uuda, we are pleased to have you with us again. Do you want to tell us the results of what has transpired ~ 249 Isince you were last here? I 250 rlr. Weisgall. Mr. Chaizman, I think Hr. Juda would like 251 to have Kasai Note here read his statement if that is okay.

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Hz . Yates. You had better speak up. is Tomaki Juda, Magistrate of the Kili Council. With today are Nathan Note, Kessai Note, and Jendrik Leviticus, as well as legal counsel Johnathan M. Weisgall of Covington & Burling in Washington, D.C. Of the four Bikinians before you today, enly Jendrik Leviticus cuzrently lives on Bikini. Mr . Yates. He went back 4 years ago. Had he lived on Hz . LJeisgall. He had lived on Kili aftez the ernigzation away fzom Bikini, and he went back to Bikini 4 years ago. I Winkel on his recent trip to Bikini and Kili, and ue held many long meetings with the people living on both islands. Based on these meetings, we can report to you that it is the stzong wish of the people living on Bikini that they not 1%

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leave theiz island. tThey old us that the Pzesident of the United States announced in 1968 that Bikini Island uas safe, and they do not nou understand why it has now been declazed dangezous. Bikini had again become their home, and they are confused as to why they must leave once again. This confusion was incxeased by a zecent visit of Dr. Conard, who,has regularly examined the Bikinians for many years on contract with the U.S. Government. Less than 1 ueek before we arrived uith High Commissioner Winkel, Dr. Conard visited the people living on Bikini and told them that Eneu Island was safe and that they could eat and drink the coconuts on Bikini Island. The High Commissioner then arrived to announce “that the people had to leave Bikini and that Eneu is not considered safe at this time. Mrs. Van Cleve. He is a doctor employed by the Depaztmen ME . Yates . And he is the one who has been regularly I

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at Brookhaven, Long Island, New York. They go out evezy 6 months and make examinations of the people and they axe nou i …