Interview with Roy Thompson (Redacted)

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INTERVIEW WITH ROY THOMPSON - SYNOPSIS Synopsis of the first tape 1. Started in 1 9 4 4 with Glenn Seaborg in inorganic chemistry at MET Lab in Chicago - worked on the Hanford'process for separating 3 . Going to Brooklyn to see about job at Pfizer - stopped by Chicago and never went to Brooklyn - at work at MET lab the next Graduate work was in microbiology/biochemistry and was working 2 years at Chicago then went to Berkeley when Seaborg returned Worked with cyclotron isotopes at Berkeley Back to Austin, Texas, on faculty for 3 1/2 years - Chemistry To Richland - knew Harry Kornberg as student at Texas (both Got involved with tritium immediately Later with ruthenium because of releases from plant Also GI absorption of plutonium -..longtern feeding What were outstanding early experiments? The iodine experiment at Hanford was the first multigenerational chronic exposure study 7 . Development of ecological work and separation from Biology Beginning of work with experimental animals was with Kornberg

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Synopsis of second tape (this tape was not transcribed) Transition from Wager to Bair - inhalation work begins Davis, Durbin, Hamilton Biology at lOOF - Biophysics at 300 area - Unfortunate separation of biology and dosimetric people 3 . His cyclotron work - post WWII Roy was a co-discoverer of one of the lighter uranium isotopes Worked with first really sizable quantities of proactinium - 4 . Contributions of research to standard setting Practically everything was done towgrd setting of standards in Application of Pu number from Hanford to other heavy elements 5 : More review of early work Numbers from Hamilton used for early standards Durbin I s extension of Hamiltonlswork He had found pieces of those papers as references and had been puzzled by it Started discussion of entire NNES series - he helped a bit with the chemistry portion Work done in MED, ete. was in general of high quality despite problems of haste, etc. 1 Has stood up well when repeated post-war

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Other summaries - special issue of Radiology and a few others Re/Waldo Cohn paper on dosimetry Fialla internal emitter dose calculations Kopp - hasn't seen him for 15 years -,broad and significant Inhalation papers in NNES hiatus - Site B - Argonne He would- have been at Site B if he hadn't had lunch with Emigma of Karl Morgan - careful and precise scientist and gentleman in days of old NCRP-SC-2 Roy was on O W L Health Physics review committee Bernard, Ford, Cook work Impact of Walter Snyder - not only ability but patience in working.withmore biologically oriented people I Perhaps too much detail - Re/Need for extra energies from a stray gamma, etc. - Walter didn't think that way at all - if it is possible to do it, you do it whether biologically significant or not field and there is no such thing as "health physics reseatch" - hands - if you are doing research then you are not doing health Roy - more an argument for how things sho:ld be organized

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Comar - does Sr behave in a predictable ratio to the way The Hanford work - more impressed with the variability in the ratio than the constancy * "Lively issuevtbut not a full blown controversy Raison d'etre for Cornell set-up in lieu of Oak Ridge Roy did not have that much to do with it Langham-Pinson early tritium work - lively competition with Results agreed well - Los Alamos - primarily on man

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INTERVIEW WITH ROY THOMPSON June8,1979 you think should be discussed Bat tell e Pacific Northwest Laboratory Off the top of your head, say what you think and who at all costs.Be sure not to miss what you think some of the outstanding developments were and where on in other labs. program, but as you see,? am trying to do some things on howit got applied too. the biological end - of things early on. I went t o work i n ' 44for. Glenn Seaborg at the MET lab in Chi.cago on strictly inorganic chemistry - It might be easier if you st acted with-what was done and how it got started and then your knowledge of what went As you know, my primary thrust is the research Idon ' t know whether you even knew - I really wasn ' tin . it was the Hanford Process for separating fission products from I think it makes your perspective all the more pertinent. THOMPSON: It was an interesting story,the way that happened. I The draft board w z s breathing hot on my tail. looking toward a job at Pfizer in Brooklyn, who were working on penicillin, and that was what my graduate work was in. - microbiology. I had taken a minor in inorganic chemistry under George watt - this was at the University lof Texas. My major was under Roger Williams. George was working i n Chiczgo on this secret project. up there,but we didn ' t know what h e was doing. usI and he said, "Look, you ' r e going t o Brooklyn, why don ' t you stop Offin Chicago, we might have something that will interest you here." Ididn ' t quite have it at the time. I was really sort of W e knew he was H e kept i n touch with

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SO Idid, and they said, "Well, there are some people over at this one place that are doing some biological work. you go over and talk to them, and then come back and talk to us here atthe new Chem Lab." So I talked to the ljiology people, and thenI had lunch w i t h Seaborg and Winston Manning and George Watt, an6 no- * body told me anything about what they were doing, of course. Then Seaborg said, " Well, who d o you want to work for,those peop'e over at site B ? " Isaid, @'I don ' t know what either one o f you -are doicg,butI know_ a number of people working for you here in the Chemistry end, and that'maybe sounds a little more interesting. When really like to have you start in the morning, he said. Maybe you can get off ina couple of weeks t o go back and get your clothes and your belongings.'@ That ' s what happened. I never got any further. STANNARD: You were working with plutonium chemistry? development of the process that was eventually used here at'Hanford to separate the plutonium fro i the fission products.I was two years a t Chicago, then when Seaborg went back t o Berkeley, Iw ent back with him and spent about a year there.All of this in Berkeley was mostly Actually for the first year I was working on the lab scale cyclotron study - looking for new isotopes.Then ' I went back tothe University of Texas on the faculty for three and a half years, so it really wasn ' t until1950thatI got into the biological kinds of work. I had a coQple of graduate students working on some zinc and cobalt metabolism studies with tracers at Texas, but.I. ST-WNXRD: What department were you i n then?

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THOMPSON: Yes,that ' s where Idid my graduate work. Then I came up herewith Harry Kornberg, who had been a fellow student at Texas before the war. fie were both students of Roger Williams. I had sort of kept up with the Biology work while I was a t Chicago and Berkeley. Iwas aware of what was going on at site Band at Berkeley, .a little bit,but that wasn ' t my major interest. I came up here, ' and right away got involved With tritium work which was sort of the big flap at the moment. STANNARD: Why was that ? THOMPSON: ' They were making it here. had some exposure problems. that time, and every time the line broke ora glass-blower worked Alot of it was work in glass lines at on it, they got exposed. STANNARD: They were making it as a by-product that came out of the THOMPSON: No.It ' s been so long ago, I ' ve forgotten why they were making it. I think it had t o do with early fusion studies, perhaps. I think it was the first large scale production of tritium that was . My major concerns through the ' 50s were tritium, ruthenium, because as witness some recent publicity on the subject, the whole area around here was sort of cracked u p with ruthenium, a s a result of releases from the production plant. Then strontium, because of fallout studies0we did alot of strontium - calcium comparative studies. Aeally, plutonium was sort of going on along the way all the time. ' In fact,the first thing I was introduced t o when Igot up here, I guess even before the tritium, was the long - term plutonium g astro - intestinal absorption studies that Gil Xatz had started - Gil Katz and Kornberg. I sort of inherited when Katz left.

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STANNARD: Were those continuous exposures? THOMPSON: The main experiment was supposed t o be daily feeding for abit,we ended up feeding them three tines a day, beforc we finished. The thought was that we wanted it somewhzt like a real chronic expcsure, so that we could get very small amounts a t any one time and Ev k ntu ally,toget more i n them and cut the time down not have to give tremendously large doses. sake of those studies, which I think was Frobably the first use bf 238 in biological work, in order again to get the low mass. STANNARD : At that time.the Biology Division included all the ecology and environmental studies ? You didn ' t mention anything about the iodine work. THOMPSON: No.I think that was going on all the while. Ididn ' t , personally, have much t o do with it. That was Leo Busted's baby. H e had all the sheep being exposed to iodine down atthe barn. Iwas aware of that work going on, but wasn ' t personally involved. STLWARD: One thing that has always puzzled meis why sheep? W:s it because sheep were expose3 in the original situation, and therefore, he wanted t o look a t sheep? - THOMPSON: I thinlk it was primarily because of the local, potential This was sheep raising country. If anything was going toget exposed ' around Hanford from grazing, it would probably be sheep. They were sort of a convenient, large animal t o study. Easy to take care of,as opposed t o some o.ther large animals like pigs They are docile and stupid. STANNARD: Going back i n your memoryJ could you Pay what would be Put . down as the ob t standing experiments that were done, with everything rLe s sent i ally sort of a continuum, THrsNPSON: I t ' s pretty hard t o pick something out. Actually, those

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early iodine studies in the sheep were perhaps one of the first,if not the first,really long-term multi - generation study of chronic exposure i n a laree animal. the experiment was Set up, and they completed those three generations. t ingui sh the original ekperiment hardly from all the layers on. How many generations did they go. e through? I'm sure they went through three. I think that ' sthe way Of course, Bair started with the long term dog studies in the latter part of the ' 50s,I guess. as in counter distinction to the ecology and environmental From now on I suppose you think of the biology program here program as very largely emphasizing inhalation toxicology. not true in the early days. THOMPSON: No. That came i n about ' 60. It grew up i n the late SO'S we exposedla few ani'mals t o tri.tium which probably shouldn ' t go inthe record. ' STANNARD: The work here, was it well coordinated with the Chicago Of course during the war years therework and the Rochester work? THOMPSON:' N o t here. I guess the beginning of biological work..here was the aquatic work. Experimental animals, other than fish,I think, probably started with Kornberg setting up the Biology Department i n STANNARD: When d i d Ralph Wager start? THOMPSON:' I came i n ' 5 0 and Wager came later than that.Idon ' t know just when. I ' ve forgotten.