Interview with DR. E.m. Romney

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Tracking fallout at NTS - for six months after detonation Lead to more basic ecology work Cesium source in Rock Valley - radiation effects on vegetation International Biological Program - same ecosystem as NTS Extension to solar energy and geothermal energy studies Work of various other people Old reports - UCLA was repository library Romney did not think much would be gained by doing a l o t of further analytical work on those samples [Note: I later made a considerable inventory of UCLA reports - this is separate from these notes, N.S.] 8 . Oak Ridge - White Oak Lake Intense study, not as as hTS 10. An aside on NAEG's decline by lack of funding

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a t his laboratory a t UCLA ROMNEY: My involvement primarily was with Kermit Larsen's fallout program; studies that were being done at that time i n the ecosystem a t the Nevada test site. So I made the effort in those early fallout programs t o track the fallout ' overa period of6 months after detonation out i n areas o f Nevada and Utah. Actually,we once went as far as up in the North and South Dakotas. And then, of course a we got involved in some of the world - wide monitoring program6 intermittent t o those shots. We went back periodically to the Trinity site, did some work there, introduced some o f the ecosystem analysis work there. And then after the moratorium,we diverted oux efforts to trying to understand more of the basic ecology of the test sites so we could study radiation effects. And then, i n the early60 ' s,the Atomic Energy Commission decided they were going toset up a cobalt source, excuse me, a cesium source, there on the Rock Valley site at NTS. ments that had been done i n house and some of the other places that were indicating As a result of some of the cobalt experiSTmNAUD: Where i s Rock Valley ? ROMNEY: Rock Valley is in the southeastern,excuse me, the southwestern corner Of the Test Site. if you ' re familiar with the layout of the land there. extensive ecological program in the environs surrounding that cesium source. 3uch of it has been basic ecology,but there have been noticeable radiation effects developed in that vegetation surrounding ft's about the szme distance north into the state as Mercury I t ' s actually between Mercury Valley and Jackass Flats And, so we czrried on an the cesizm field. This is sort of a com pie ment to the Brookhaven Work?

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ROMNEY: Yes. Yes, i t was patterned somewhat after the Brookhaven approach. STANNARD: But an entirely different ecosystem. ROMNEY: Absolutely entirely different. We've been doing nothing on that field now for the past five years except for periodic monitoring o f the site.It hasn ' t been very extensive because efforts were diverted toward the International Biological Program studies in that same area. irradiation source and watch and see how rapidly that ecosystem recovers back t o normal. I t would be, I think, a good thing to do. The cost of doing this wouldn't be too great. We are proposing now that they discontinue the I t could be worked in with some o f our other studies that we're doing at the test site now, and some o f them may interest you. relate to solar energy problems and t o geo-thermal problems. environmental protection laws make i t necessary t o go out of state to do these studies. And the test site, of course, isa nice place where these things can be done without having t o have the state approvals forit.Idon ' t think that the law really is unsound, butI don't think that some of the restrictions they Many o f the state put on us are proper either ; you know they ' r e somewhat groundless in tens of the levels. Actually, none of these studies I'm speaking about are - radioactive processess. They involve some trace metals, some s a l t and heat sources that might be considered ,butI think that were it not for the test site and i t s proximity t o areas where geo-thermal development and solar energy development is being donelit Kould create quite a logistics problem t o hzve t o go somewhere else to do the work. we can d o this type of testing in the same ecosystem and relate to others in the Mojave Desert where they might propose t o put solar generating systems or geothermal type of genezating plants. But'the test site is in close enough proximity that We're quite fortunate in that relrtionship.

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Now neither relate to something that might be done i n the prairie grassland o r an eastern deciduous forest. Of course, we're not able to monitor or do studies generic t o those other types of systems. the wheel ina number of different things,I ' d say. Butit ' s been necessary t o go i n the direction of the funding that ' s been available. rather heavily working i n support of the various technologies. a t the labin our environmental studies program, we are doing support work for fossil fuel technology, nuclear technology, geo-thermal and now solar in these, a s they relate to vegetation problems in the desert ecosystem. The early work that was done on the human. work and Bob Bennett's group. Of course, Staff Warren's leadership and direction in these areas resulted in some rather eminent work being done here fora number So we sort of tried t o reinvent And we do have some conservation type programs interwoven Effects were primarily Tappy's o f years. A man worked with the old atomic energy project; Ben Cassen did quite abit of effects work Norm McDonald is still on campus. abit of work with the cyclotron that we have developed over i n the medical center. His whole body radiation studies are, as far asI know, still conand his application of nuclear techniques t o human health Ralph Nusbaum was involved i n this. Either from the system by retirement o r by a rather untimely death. Norm's still around, and Norm's doing quite Of course, these gentlemen are all Well, one thing I'm expected t o look into is - are there any significant

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collections of data in the interns1 emitter field that never saw the light of day for one reason o r another, i.e. good data that ought t o be published? 1 know of some,and I ' v e been really quite disappointed a t the attitude of I ' ve visited Argonne,and the only place thatI could read alot of the old CH reports was in their technical information files, and you have to stay right there in a quonset hut yet. time. I thought,it might be that the library here may be in good shape in terms of atleast UCLA reports. ROMNEY: Yes. UCLA has been a repository for all that early work. And unless i t ' s for some reason or other been discarded,it should be here. about t o dispose of things (which Rochester did just about the time I retired and I sequestered alot of stuff), maybe you could flag it down and tell the mI ' d They just don ' t seem t o have any feeling for historical value. And that means going and sitting around and reading fora long I guess what I really would like to forest al1,if possible, if they ' r e 'be glad t o take i t over, d o whatever i s needed. come read i t and get titles and maybe even get a full list of titles. And then indi - What I ' d rather do would be able t o cate those things that I really would like especially to be able t o read. And then either come up and read them,or i f they have anybody t o Xerox them,I could pay t o have them xeroxed and sent down t o San Diego. My budget isnot huge, but i t ' s enough t o take care of things like that. ROMNEY: Well, you for all documents. don ' t know if that time when I really know the library here a t UCLA has been one of the main repositories And a t one time, i t was a repository for security documents. I still is the case on campus, the main campus library. ' Since the had much involvement with it, they've built a new library.I ' v e - never had reason t o inquire where these types of materials are,but I would be surprised but what they are available. And they may be available,except for

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classified documents, on an intercampus loan basis for you. STANNARD: I t ' d be very interesting to know i f they have for example, the CH series ROMNEY: We might possibly have some of those on microfiche or micro card in our has been t o some extent independent of the main library but has been selective i n what we've asked for i n the literature distribution.Now,we could step over for just a moment and look and see what might be in that Right here. We have kept a rather active branch library which CH Series, ifyou ' d like to see that.The other possibility as you suggested would be to find out the status of these reports,and then i t may be worth your while to come up for a day or two and spend some time in the archives looking through this. STANNARD: Joe Ross gave me the impression that there are quite a few things i n UCLA reports out of the internal emitter work done a t the test site that never got published. ROMNEY: Well, they could be. They would still be i n UCLA report form not having been sent on into the open literature. STANNARD: What my charge is, as I view it, not to subject the next generation to having to find all these reports butto be able to get a little more complete story of the things that are sequestered in ''company files " ,SO io speak. would have in getting anything that would have not reached to form1 re-port of course, Ben and George are still around, you might discuss i t with The personal f i l e s of Ben Cassen and George Taplin would help. I know, Staff Warren's available still.But,for example, Tom Haley was here

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fora long time and was working with problems related to the pharmacology program, pharmaceutical type. where Tom is. I think,with that program there,but he may have gone. to Hawaii fora while,but he couldn ' t take that climatic condition and And you know Idon ' t know a t the moment The lastI heard he was down i n the southeast a t Chapel Hill, When he left us, he went moved back i n the southeast. But there ' s a good contact on some o f the direct type of work that was being done. [N.B. This was never followed up directly, N.S.] STJNNARD: Well, i n your opinion, was their much work lying around in files that is really good work that is worth spending a lot of energy to try to get out or is it mostly there because i t wasn't good work for one reason o r another? think that you ' r e almost forced to talk to Tom Healey and maybe George Taplin I'm too far removed from the field to know how to judge that.I would STANNARD: Well, I was thinking of things like Kermit Larson's work. Alot of i t I know never saw the light ' o f day. ROMNEY: A lot of that work didn ' t get into formal reports. However, the reports that were published are good examples of that which would be i n the files. Xermit took his material with him when he left this laboratory. STANNARD: As I understand, even the actual samples went with him. ROMNEY: Well, the samples have been pretty much catalogued a t the test site. STANNARD: Oh, they have? ROMNEY: To my last dnderstanding of it. They were being stored in a house a t the test site. There was an intent for the NAEG program todo some of the radio-chemical analysis that would be necessary t o get the information for those base linedata. [ N.B. - Kermit has them now o r so I understood a t our inter ~ iew ~ N.S.1 STANNARD: We've discussed that in the Plutonium Committee of NAE G.

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ROMNEY : Yes. That's right. Now that, as you know, never came about,due t o the cost and other problems thatI ' m not familiar with. source fora personal discussion. STANNARD: The trouble is,he ' s not going t o be one to tell me whether it was good or not. ROMNEY: Now, that ' s true. STANNARD: I'm trying t o save myself the energy of going through a l o t of dead But Kermit would be a good material that is unanalyzed and repetitious. ROMNEY: I don't think that there's anything t o be gained from the analytical work on those samples. I think that we've gone beyond that now since i n the last two or three years the work a t the Nevada test site where we've gone i n and done surveys on those sites that give u s much more informative data than the fallout samples would have (you know, going back and analyzing fallout samples.) I think that we've moved ahead so that those samples are virtually useless. They would be interesting t o reconstruct i n mare detail some of the old fallout patterns. But what purpose that would serve i s questionable at this Well, it probably is a little xiare detailed than I would plan t o put in this project anyway. greater detail of what have already been i n the reports. that the reports that he finally submitted and which have been published would I think these samples that Kermit has would give give you all the information that would be needed t o indicate the kind of conditions that existed in a fallout field, the extent of actual contamination that existed, and the distribution of activity in a geographic sense.

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ROMNEY: There are copies of the WT reports a t the NAVOO library. every WT and ITR report that was ever done is there. mst of them because I had t o work with them at one time. We have some of those k~ reports here, but again they ' rein the micro filesystem so they ' ree little harder t o read. But certainly would be available anytime you'd want …