Interview with Charles Shilling, James Haggerty, and William Lotz - Synopsis

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IhTERVIEW WITH CHARLES SHILLING, JAMES HAGGERTY, and WILLIAM LCTZ - [Starts in the middle of a discussion, N.S.] 1. Discussing Ralph Lapp, Sternglass Shilling urged discussion of some of these people in book to the extent feasible Tamplin, Nader - trying to change the entire structure and 2. Re/Influence of military on AEC DBM - small except for weapons University of Rochester had more military influence than DBM 3..AEC as a research sponsor in early days Continued as notes made from deteriorated tape Also notes at time of interview - the geneticists input - genesis of megawave experiment

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INTERVIEW NITH CHARLES SHILLING formerly AEC Deputy Director, JAMES HAGGERTY formerly DBN, AEC,and WILLIAM LOTZ with whom I had a more detailed interview later LOTZ: But you know h e ' s turned 180 degrees. STANNARD: He sure has! STANNARD: Ralph Lapp i s a moderate. - STANNARD: Still in Pittsburgh. LOTZ : He did good work on instrumentation as I recall. STANNARD: Yes, i t was all right. VOICE: Idon ' t know what he did but... STANNARD: Idon ' t know what I ' m going t o do about that.I ' l l probably Sternglass has, wherever he l o o k s the data always proves Where i s he living now? have t o say something about it. SHILLING: You have t o somewhere treat the problem of the number o f people who were, for their own ends whatever they may be, for publicity or for contracts or what have you, who were playing a game that was LOTZ: Well, I think they ' r e doing i t more now than they were then. STANNARD: Oh, yes. I t ' s worse. I t ' s more sophisticated, too. STANNARD: Sure, scared people t o death. O f course, i n the early OS, they played upon the unknown.

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LOTZ : I saw Art Tamplin about a year ago, and I hadn ' t seen him turn this country around. ' I HAGGERTY: Who said this t o you? LOTZ : Tamp lin. This i s what Nader i s doing. I mean h e ' s trying t o change our whole economy. major revolutionary changes i n the whole country. And Isaid, "Well, i t won't stay turned. ' I You hear i t more and more that these guys are looking for Using their peeves asa tool. SHILLING: Of course, this is true all the way around. I am absolutely dumbfounded a t the number of scientists who will not believe that there i s any problem with communism over i n the iron curtain countries. SHILLING: Alright. For example, they don ' t believe their mail i s opened and read before the people getit. Some of the scientists in VOICE: Oh, yes. SHILLING: O f course! I know two or three instances where people were, I know one of them was a very good friend of mine in Czechoslovakia who damn near went to Siberia over some letters some U.S. people wrote. . LOTZ: I know my communist friends over there i n Vienna, these guys I worked with, boy, they were uncertain who was their friend. VOICE: Well, of course, you have t o be!

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SHILLING: Oh, hell no. We couldn ' t have this conversation there. that we were having competition o r anything else. STANNARD: Well, I think that ' s great. This i s important because I think a lot of people think that a lot of the biomedical work was overshadowed by the mil itary appl i cations. with it as far as we were concerned. VOICE: We didn ' t even know who was head o f DMA (Division o f Military STANNARD: . Well, the only place I ' v e ever seen it is in Nevada. I'm a consultant t o the Nevada Appl ied Ecology Group. STANNARD: Yes, sure. ....t hat ' s so faras DBM was concerned, we didn ' t realize Ididn ' t even know that the military had anything t o do Well, yes, they are funded by them,but that ' sthe only SHILLING: But s of aras DBM was concerned, I can say without any question when I was deputy director for 5years,I was -never influenced i n the least by any military means. LOTZ: There might have been some joint venture, like "R Coaster", but I don ' t think that there were many. So probably University o f Rochester has had a hell of a lot more military

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STANNARD : I think that ' strue. Certainly when we went on that TG-57, we had a lot of military help. SHILLING: As faras the 5 years thatI was there, there was none. STANNARD: O f course, from where we satas researchers, and this book is going to be primarily on research, we couldn ' t have had a better with within the mission o f AEC, but from that point on the amount o f control was really I think - largely due t o the kind of director you had and the kind of staff you had. The scientist had alot of freedom. VOICE : Somebody down a t the New York office had ruled that you NIH is certainly no better than AEC was in those days. As you know you had t o make a reasonable case for what you did couldn ' t buy a British journal because you had t o buy American!